THE HON ANDREW HASTIE MP
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE PERSONNEL
FEDERAL MEMBER FOR CANNING

TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEW WITH SALLY SARA, RN BREAKFAST

WEDNESDAY 26 FEBRUARY 2025

Topics: Chinese warships off Australia’s coast.

SALLY SARA: The Shadow Defence Minister, Andrew Hastie, is my guest in the studio this morning. Andrew, good to see you.

ANDREW HASTIE: Good morning, Sally.

SALLY SARA: How would you describe your reaction to what's unfolded in the Tasman Sea with these Chinese warships?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think the larger frame is really important – China is undergoing the biggest peacetime military build-up since 1945. They've built a blue-water navy, and now they're projecting that navy into our region. It sailed through Philippine waters, through the Coral Sea, down past Sydney. It's conducted two live fire exercises, disrupting up to 50 commercial flights, and now it's sitting in the Exclusive Economic Zone about 300 kilometres off Tasmania. It's a very strong message from China that they are a global power, and I think what they're doing is they're testing US allies as Donald Trump resets relationships in Europe. I think it's a message to us. I think they've worked out the Prime Minister. I think they've worked out that he's a weak Prime Minister, and they're testing him. Our concern is that the Prime Minister has not stood up for our sovereignty, our national interest, and insisted on mutual respect in this relationship with China.

SALLY SARA: When Scott Morrison was Prime Minister, a forthright approach was taken to China, especially during the pandemic. That ended up with trade sanctions and Australian ministers unable to have their calls returned from their Chinese counterparts. Given this history, what makes you think that repeating that approach is a good idea?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think what we've seen under Prime Minister Albanese is a weakening of our position. He's claimed to have fixed the relationship, yet we're seeing a flotilla of three warships conduct live fire exercises off our coast. So we've gone from wolf warrior diplomacy to gunboat diplomacy. We've gone from the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs putting out mean tweets four years ago, to now having a flotilla of three warships conduct live fire exercises off our coast. The signal is very clear. We think, in the Coalition, that the Prime Minister has been weak. He's not stood up for our ADF personnel. And this latest incident, by the way, comes off the back of a few years of incidents throughout the region where ADF personnel have had challenges from the Chinese military, whether it's at sea or in the air, through chaff, flares and sonar pulses against our sailors, and the Prime Minister has failed to stand up for our ADF personnel in those instances.

SALLY SARA: The Australian government has responded each time those incidents have taken place, to be clear. I want to talk about some of the specifics of what's occurred in the past week. What do you think about the fact that we found out from estimates yesterday that it was a Virgin Australia pilot who got the initial information that live fire drills were about to take place, and that message was then passed on to the ADF? The ADF didn't know.

ANDREW HASTIE: We'll be following this line of questioning further in estimates. It's concerning that that appears to be the case on the face of it, but we'll pursue that further. I think, if nothing else, the Australian people need to realise that we're living in a new world. It's a more dangerous world, and we have to be able to defend ourselves. And we've under invested in Defence over the last 25-years, and we need to up our investment into Defence. We need to increase our Defence expenditure. Keir Starmer, the UK Labor Prime Minister, has announced overnight that they'll be increasing their defence expenditure in the UK and I think the Prime Minister needs to follow suit. He needs to lead here. He's not leading, and that's a problem.

SALLY SARA: As we know, there are long lag times when it comes to Defence spending decisions and actually having a ship in the water or getting weapon systems ready to go. The 2009 Defence White Paper recommended a significant increase in spending, particularly on ships and submarines. The Gillard Government and Coalition Governments didn't act quickly on that advice. Do you concede that some of the decisions from a decade ago, we are now dealing with the consequences of those given that lag time?

ANDREW HASTIE: Sure, Sally, I'm happy to concede that. And when those decisions were taken, I was in uniform at the time and I experienced them at the lowest levels in the ADF. So yes, we need to do better, our Parliament needs to do better, and the government needs to lead here. Right now we're seeing weakness from this Prime Minister.

SALLY SARA: What do you think about the current asymmetric aspect of what's happening? One of these Chinese cruisers, at the moment, has more vertical launch cells for missiles than all of our Anzacs have, and even combining in the New Zealand equivalents as well. What does that tell us about the gap in capability?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think it's a very clear message from the Chinese. They have a lot of capacity in this flotilla, as you say. 32 vertical launch cells, which is significant firepower – surface to air missiles, anti-submarine missiles. And we should also assume as well that there's probably a general-purpose Attack-class submarine in the water as well as part of the flotilla. I mean, that would be a safe assumption that any military strategist would make. So this is a significant package, and I can't help but see the move into Tasmanian waters as sending a larger signal as well, particularly with the issue around Taiwan.

SALLY SARA: The former Home Affairs Secretary, Mike Pezzullo, has made this suggestion this week. Let's have a listen.

*EXCERPT PLAYS*

SALLY SARA: I'm wondering what you think about that? And I'm thinking a couple of years ago, there was what's known as the 'Red Alert' series in the Nine newspapers talking about this kind of level of threat that was regarded by some as alarmist at the time. What do you think of those comments from Michael Pezzullo?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think Michael Pezzullo is a straight shooter. He's unencumbered by office now, and he's speaking his mind. And I think these are the sorts of scenarios that we need to consider. It's a very obvious point the Chinese military is making – the Chinese government is making – conducting live fire exercises in the Tasman Sea without notice, disrupting up to 50 flights. If we did the same thing in the South China Sea, we'd have hell to pay.

SALLY SARA: But we do live fire as well.

ANDREW HASTIE: But we don't do live fire just off Chinese waters, disrupting commercial flight paths. We do not do that. We conduct lawful, security-based operations as part of a broader coalition to uphold the laws of the sea. It's very, very different to what's taken place. And frankly, those who say that this is all done within international law, is to miss the point. That's what the Prime Minister has said. He's missing the deeper point. This is a signal of military strength against a close US ally like Australia, and it's come at a time where we have a new president in Donald Trump who is resetting relationships. It's a signal sent to underscore our relative geographical isolation, and that's why the lesson for the Australian people out of this is we need to increase our Defence expenditure, and we need to be able to stand on our own two feet, because our lines of trade and our lines of communication are very vulnerable.

SALLY SARA: Can we rely on the US and other allies to come and rescue us if things go wrong?

ANDREW HASTIE: I'm always a believer in friendships and building alliances. But in the end, the lesson out of Ukraine, the lesson out of October 7, is you have to be able to stand on your own two feet. You need to be able to make things to sustain yourself, and you need to be able to take a punch as well and be able to punch back. And I think the ADF is going to get weaker before it gets stronger. We're not going to see our first general purpose frigate until the end of the decade. We're not going to see our first Virginia class submarine until the early 2030s. What I want to do, if the government changes and I'm the Minister for Defence, I want to focus on how we can get Australian defence industry going and how we can build capability here ourselves.

SALLY SARA: The other issue I wanted to ask you about is recruitment, which you've spoken about before. We know, particularly with Navy, we have some of these assets, but there are circumstances sometimes where we don't have the crew to make sure that they're operational. Lots of different approaches have been tried with recruitment. What would you do differently?

ANDREW HASTIE: I'm very keen to see more uniformed personnel put against the problem. I want our best officers –

SALLY SARA: But how do you get that?

ANDREW HASTIE: – And our best enlisted taking charge of recruitment. We've given it to civilian contractors for too long. They're not hitting their targets, they're doing woefully in fact, and I think young Australians need to hear a message of service – service to country. There's a whole lot of benefits from serving your country, but I think it's a very sacred duty to defend it, and I want young Australians to be drawn to the Defence Force on a values proposition first and foremost. We've got to do a better job of getting out into the community and selling that message to young Australians. I'm a graduate of the Defence Force Academy and Duntroon – forever grateful for the taxpayer for giving me the opportunities through those institutions and I want other young Australians to have those same opportunities too.

SALLY SARA: Andrew Hastie, good to have you in the studio here in Parliament House this morning. Thank you very much.

ANDREW HASTIE: Thanks, Sally. Pleasure.

[ENDS]