THE HON ANDREW HASTIE MP

SHADOW MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND SOVEREIGN CAPABILITY
 FEDERAL MEMBER FOR CANNING

TRANSCRIPT

INTERVIEW WITH DAVID SPEERS, ABC INSIDERS

Sunday 29 March 2026

Topics: Conflict in the Middle East; fuel supply; fuel excise; cost of living; re-industrialisation; One Nation.

E&OE……………………………………

DAVID SPEERS: Andrew Hastie, welcome to the program.

ANDREW HASTIE: Good morning, David.

DAVID SPEERS: So when you hear our most important ally downplaying our willingness to help, how does that make you feel?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, it gives me a visceral reaction, because I think about what we've done over the last 100 years with the United States – First World War, Second World War, 500 dead in Vietnam, we were there in Iraq and Afghanistan – so we've been a good ally. But whatever you think about Donald Trump's rhetoric, the world has changed. And if you look at the National Defense Strategy put out by the Department of War last year, they refer to the rules-based order as a cloud castle abstraction. It's not just Iran, China and Russia who are testing this world order, Donald Trump and his team have said it's dead, so we need to take that seriously. And I think what this war has done is emphasised the need for us to be self-reliant as a nation.

DAVID SPEERS: I'll come to that, but on this war, can you see an exit strategy here?

ANDREW HASTIE: The strategic rationale for the war has changed. We've gone from regime change, nuclear weapons and then degrading Iran's missile, drone and naval capacity. Last year, I supported Operation Midnight Hammer because the IAEA put out a statement that Iran had 400 kilograms of enriched uranium at 60 per cent – which is just a short step from getting to weapons grade uranium – and I thought that was a legitimate reason last year. We never got any battle damage assessment after those strikes on Fordow, Natanz and Isfahan, so we don't know what the Iranians have. The point now is though, that the US went to war without consulting allies and a lot of American allies are dependent upon the exportation of hydrocarbons out of the Middle East, and so we're experiencing the economic pain now, particularly in this country.

DAVID SPEERS: You just said you supported that Midnight Hammer mission last year. Do you support this war?

ANDREW HASTIE: I don't know why we went in now. I thought last year we did the job. You can take issue with Donald Trump's rhetoric, it's all priced in – mean tweets and whatever else – but there wasn't consultation with allies, because had we had a bit more lead time, we wouldn't be in the current crisis we are now where we're trying to secure our liquid fuel.

DAVID SPEERS: You can't support this war, is what you're saying?

ANDREW HASTIE: No, if I have to choose between the United States and Israel, and Iran, I'm going to choose democracies rather than a murderous regime which has ambitions to build a nuclear weapon and potentially use it against Israel, the US and allies. So don't get me wrong here. But wounds from a friend can be trusted while an enemy multiplies kisses. As a close friend of the United States – I think that we can be honest, and we can ask hard questions.

DAVID SPEERS: So being honest and asking the hard questions, again, do you see an exit strategy, or do you fear, with ground troops now being sent to the region by the US, we could be heading into another forever war?

ANDREW HASTIE: I don't know about a forever war, but a ground operation certainly has huge risks. But the battle of Hormuz now is going to take some time to resolve. The best case scenario is late April, but this could drag on for some time. There isn't an international coalition like in 1987-88 when the strait needed to be reopened – even the Soviets were involved with that one – there isn't an international coalition of ships ready to open the strait. And so as a country that's dependent upon imports of oil from the Middle East via Asia, we're really in a difficult place right now.

DAVID SPEERS: Are you worried that us credibility is being damaged?

ANDREW HASTIE: I am worried about that, yes, absolutely.

DAVID SPEERS: And are you worried that Australians' support for the US alliance is also being weakened by all of this?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think so, and I think the economic pain is going to be more acute, and they're going to question the judgment of the President as this drags on.

DAVID SPEERS: What about you, though? I mean, if you're questioning the judgment of the President, does this shift your own view of the alliance?

ANDREW HASTIE: No, I'm pro-America, and I have been for a long time. I'm married to an American, my grandfather was saved by a US medic in World War Two, I've served on combat operations with Americans. But like I said, we can be critical of bad strategic decisions, and I think –  

DAVID SPEERS: You think this was a bad strategic decision?

ANDREW HASTIE: – I think this was a huge miscalculation. Iran has managed to pretty much hold the whole world economy to ransom, and because we're at the end of a very long supply chain, we're going to experience pain. We were already in a bad position before this war broke out – high interest rates, sticky inflation, now we've got bond yields headed upwards, equity markets are down, consumer confidence is low. We've got deficits – we're heading towards $1 trillion worth of debt – we don't have the fat for a twin energy shock in oil and gas, which is what's going to happen to our country.

DAVID SPEERS: Let's talk about that. So the latest move from the government is to underwrite shipments to help secure supply – shore up supply. Legislation, emergency legislation, will be introduced by the government in Parliament tomorrow. Will you support it?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think we need to be doing whatever we can to make sure that we have sufficient supply in this country.

DAVID SPEERS: Does this make sense?

ANDREW HASTIE: So on principle, this makes sense. We'll look at the Bill – these are big and extraordinary powers, but we are in extraordinary times – and we'll just make sure that it's fit for purpose, and the right checks and balances are in place.

DAVID SPEERS: On the call to cut fuel excise, to halve fuel excise, wouldn't making fuel cheaper just add to the demand problem?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think we're on the edge of a recession here and if we don't get fuel to the bowser and make it affordable for families, for tradies, for the economy that depends on fuel, we could slide into a recession here. So we've got to do supply work, which the government's doing, and we also need to do demand work as well, and that's why cutting fuel exercise and the Heavy Vehicle Road User Charge makes sense. It's temporary and targeted – it's offset on the Budget. We're going to use money from the electric vehicle discount, subsidies for green hydrogen and tax production credits, and also the Home Battery Scheme. So this is offset, this isn't additional inflationary spending.

DAVID SPEERS: If petrol and diesel are cheaper, and there's a fear that we're going to run out of it, people are going to buy more, they're going to fill jerry cans, aren't they?

ANDREW HASTIE: This is where the government's failing. This is a human nature management problem. We're seeing hoarding and informal rationing throughout the supply chain –

DAVID SPEERS: How do you stop that?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, the government has to take a more of a leadership and co-ordination role with the states, and they need to stop people from hoarding –  

DAVID SPEERS: But how do you stop that?

ANDREW HASTIE: Where there's bumps in the supply chains, the government must smooth those out –

DAVID SPEERS: But where there is supply, people are filling up jerry cans – this the hoarding. How are you saying that should be stopped?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think all Australians need a message from the Prime Minister to just keep calm, carry on –

DAVID SPEERS: But that's what he's saying – he's saying do the right thing and don't buy more than you need.

ANDREW HASTIE: He's got to be getting up every single day. The panellists just before alluded to Covid. We're entering that sort of space now –

DAVID SPEERS: So limit purchases each day?

ANDREW HASTIE: No, I'm not saying we should do any of those. The government hasn't been transparent so I can't see the modelling, I can't see where the distribution blockages are – they see that. We've been using Question Time over the last few weeks to draw out as much information as we can. This is what I mean about leading – being transparent, speaking daily to the nation, making sure that where there are bumps in the supply chain, they're smoothed out.

DAVID SPEERS: I guess the bigger question is, how does Australia become more resilient to global energy shocks like this? This is part of your role when it comes to sovereign capability. What should we do to protect ourselves from moments like this?

ANDREW HASTIE: I've long held the view that de-industrialisation over the last 40 years was a big mistake – it was a bipartisan project – and we're now down to two refineries. The last time we were caught in this –

DAVID SPEERS: Whose fault was that though?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, as a country, it's everyone's fault. We bet long on the post-Cold War rules-based order – the US would remain on the same trajectory for 50 to 100 years –

DAVID SPEERS: Should the former government have done more to keep those refineries open?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, we kept those last two refineries going. Angus Taylor, as Energy Minister, partnered with the Australian Workers Union to keep them open.

DAVID SPEERS: What about all the ones that closed?

ANDREW HASTIE: Again, two of those closures were announced under Labor. I mean, we can talk about the past, but we've got to talk about the future. I'm future focused, and I think we need to do exploration in this country, we need to drill in this country for unconventional oil shale, gas, and we should also talk about using coal. We have an abundance of coal – we could do coal to liquid in this country. We could have coal to liquid refineries that produce diesel and aviation gas, and that could prevent us from being vulnerable in a war or a crisis. Because it doesn't matter how you diversify supply chains, in the end, if you don't have feed stock and refining capacity in this country, you're going to be vulnerable to geopolitical events.

DAVID SPEERS: This coal liquification idea, it is used in China and South Africa, I think. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be?

ANDREW HASTIE: I imagine it would be just as expensive as any major projects around the country.

DAVID SPEERS: Any idea though?

ANDREW HASTIE: I couldn't give you a figure.

DAVID SPEERS: It's got to stack up, though, doesn't it?

ANDREW HASTIE: It's got to stack up and I think if the private sector are going to lead on this, they need a sense that they have the backing of our political leaders. They need regulatory certainty, and they need support, and I think there is a growing support out there in the Australian people for fuel security.

DAVID SPEERS: It's highly polluting though too, isn't it?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, sure, there's always trade-offs with these things. I tell you what's going to be more difficult, though, is if we run dry and we have to go to rationing and the economy tanks.

DAVID SPEERS: Why isn't the shift to more electric vehicles part of your answer to this problem? Wouldn't that give us greater protection from an oil shock?

ANDREW HASTIE: I have no problem with electrification – that's a good thing, and it diversifies our supply chain. But in the end, over the medium term, we're still going to need plenty of diesel for trucks and we're going to need aviation gas. A lot of our economy is a just-in-time diesel economy –

DAVID SPEERS: But motorists are voting with their feet. Electric vehicle sales, since this war began, are taking off. You accept that? That this is a way Australians see that they can protect themselves from the oil price.

ANDREW HASTIE: And that's because of the Fringe Benefit Tax exemption for electric vehicles –

DAVID SPEERS: Which you want to get rid of.

ANDREW HASTIE: Let's be honest here, 75 per cent or so of EVs are imported from China – it actually acts as a subsidy for Chinese manufacturing. And in fact, we're on track by 2028-29, I think it is, to subsidise overseas car manufacturers, more than we ever did Holden and Ford in this country. One thing we're not talking about, though – which goes to your point about electrification – is the gas market. We're talking about the oil market, but we're not talking about the gas market. And gas here sets, often, the wholesale electricity price in this country. So with gas shortage now across the world, we can expect our electricity prices to also rocket through the roof.

DAVID SPEERS: But it's less and less setting the price as more people get home batteries. We're not seeing what happened with Ukraine, are we?

ANDREW HASTIE: The National Energy Market uses a marginal pricing system, and gas is still often the marginal generator –

DAVID SPEERS: Not as much as it was.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, it's still very much is. It might only produce five to 10 per cent of energy needs –

DAVID SPEERS: Sure, but it's going to set the price.

ANDREW HASTIE: But it sets the price, which means –

DAVID SPEERS: Do you accept that home batteries, though, help address that problem?

ANDREW HASTIE: – Which means if our domestic gas price is fixed to the export price of LNG, we can expect electricity prices to go through the roof. My whole point here is that we're about to head into a perfect economic storm, and the test for the Prime Minister and the Treasurer come May is how they keep this country from sliding into recession.

DAVID SPEERS: Sure. But look on batteries, more than 2,500 households in your own seat have taken up the cheaper home battery subsidy from the government to get a battery installed at home. It is most popular, this scheme, in seats like yours in the outer metro areas. Why would you want to end that?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think there's integrity around the battery scheme –

DAVID SPEERS: What do you mean by that?

ANDREW HASTIE: We're going to have a closer look at the home battery scheme –

DAVID SPEERS: What's the integrity problem?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, we'll explore that. There are questions about how the money is being distributed. The point I want to make, though, is –

DAVID SPEERS: Is someone rorting this? Is that what you're saying?

ANDREW HASTIE: The three areas that I've highlighted – the electric vehicle discount, the subsidies for green hydrogen and production tax credits, and the Home Battery Scheme – this is all good and well if you can afford these things. But we want to focus on looking after Australians now who are getting hit at the bowser and that's –

DAVID SPEERS: You're the one raising this gas problem that it's pushing up our electricity prices –

ANDREW HASTIE: It is.

DAVID SPEERS: Homes in your own electorate are deciding: "I'm put a battery in, that's going to shield my family, make us more self-sufficient," aren't they?

ANDREW HASTIE: Gas in this country is both a fuel and a feedstock, and this is the broader problem. Gas as a fuel, powers our alumina and aluminium industry –

DAVID SPEERS: But what have you got against home batteries?

ANDREW HASTIE: – Cementing kilns, bricks and tiles. It's also a feedstock for urea, ammonia and plastic precursors. So if the price of gas goes up, there's a lot of complementary inputs across the economy – they're going to get more expensive for Australians. And you know, batteries can't batteries can't fill the gap.

DAVID SPEERS: But should people put a battery in or not?

ANDREW HASTIE: It's up to them. But we want to get bang for buck, and right now we've got successive deficits in this country, and we just think that we can use our money more sensibly and more prudently given the situation that we're in.

DAVID SPEERS: I want to ask you, more broadly – your role as the Shadow Minister for Sovereign Capability – what is your vision? Obviously, we can't be self-sufficient in every industry. What are the priorities for you?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think first thing is getting out of Net Zero. I think the government's energy policy and industry policy is decarbonisation, and they're two sides of the same Net Zero coin. What that's doing is making us less productive and less cost competitive as a country. And so if we're going to retain sovereign capability – like refining – if we're going to retain our smelters and our alumina refineries, we need to be cost competitive. There are trade-offs with the Labor government's ideological push towards Net Zero and that means that a lot of our heavy industry goes offshore. The costs of the Net Zero transition are also passed on to households and small businesses as well. So number one: get out of Net Zero, get power prices down. Number two: rebuild an advanced manufacturing capability. You can't do defence industry policy, for example, if you don't have a strong industrial base, and that's what I think we need to recover as a nation.

DAVID SPEERS: So can you just clear up, do you support what the government's done to keep things like the Whyalla Steelworks, the Mount Isa copper smelter, and just the other day, the Boyne Island aluminium smelter going in Australia?

ANDREW HASTIE: They're treating the symptoms of a problem they've caused.

DAVID SPEERS: Do you support what they're doing?

ANDREW HASTIE: I want to keep those industries going, but long term, we can't keep bailing out assets that aren't cost competitive. And the underlying problem, of course, is Labor's Net Zero.

DAVID SPEERS: Isn't it also the concentration of these markets, like copper and aluminium, by the Chinese? Surely, this is what the companies themselves are saying are the problem.

ANDREW HASTIE: Sure, China is playing very aggressively in the industry policy space – subsidising, protection – and so it's very hard for countries like Australia to compete. But one thing we do have is an abundance of coal, gas, uranium. We've also got a lot of solar capacity as well – wind and sun. But you can't build an economy of solar, wind and batteries alone. If you look at the Asia Pacific region – and Dr Fatih Birol, if he consulted his own website where it breaks down energy uses in the Asia Pacific – in 2023, coal was on an upward curve. Renewables is about seven and a half percent of the overall energy mix in the Asia Pacific region.

DAVID SPEERS: So to re-industrialise some of these sectors that you're talking about in defence as well comes at a cost. Is this one of the reasons why you're more open than some of your colleagues to things like windfall profits tax on gas exports?

ANDREW HASTIE: On that, I'm open minded because the Liberal Party is not the first line of defence for corporate Australia. I think multinationals and big business in this country have lost their social license, they've made no effort to recover it, and a lot of Australians feel like the system is rigged against them. They don't feel like aspiration matters anymore. They don't see reward for their effort. A lot of them have lost hope completely of ever owning their own home. I think, as a dad of three kids – aged 10, eight and four – do my wife and I need to start planning for them to get into a home rather than my own retirement? And a lot of families, I think are thinking the same across this country. So I'm open minded because –

DAVID SPEERS: Sounds like you're more than open minded. Do you think the gas exports should be taxed more?

ANDREW HASTIE: We got smashed in 2022; we got smashed in 2025. Our primary vote is being cannibalised from both the right and the left. So I think adopting a posture of humility and being open minded is important – not being reactive. So I think the bigger geopolitical frame here, and the macroeconomic frame here, is that we're about to potentially slide into a recession. One of the things we've got going for us is our abundance of gas – is introducing a new tax right at this time, going to help our situation? Before February 28 this conversation looked very different. We're in a different period now.

DAVID SPEERS: Okay, but just on your answer there – and you've referenced housing, and your worries about your kids ever being able to buy a house – is this why you're also open to negative gearing, capital gains tax changes?

ANDREW HASTIE: This is a new era. The world order has collapsed in the last couple of years. We're experiencing a lot of economic pain; inflation is very sticky. I've mentioned all the factors that people feel and live every day.

DAVID SPEERS: So it shouldn't be ruled out, these tax changes?

ANDREW HASTIE: I just think we need to overhaul the whole system. We either fix the system, or it's torn down by people like Pauline Hanson.

DAVID SPEERS: So those colleagues of yours who say, "it's a tax on housing if you're going to do these things," are you saying to them –

ANDREW HASTIE: No one's going to reward us for a final last stand for neo-Liberal politics, okay. There's no medal for that. I actually want to win and deliver centre-right government for this country. And the best way to beat Labor is to start listening to people and meeting their concerns head on, rather than reactively slapping them down.

DAVID SPEERS: Just on the fight that the Liberal Party is facing against One Nation in particular. You've made the point that One Nation is out to tear down the Liberal Party. Should the Liberal Party be doing preference deals with One Nation?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think John Howard is right on this. I think it should be a case by case, seat by seat basis. My working assumption now is that One Nation wants to supplant us as the major party on the centre right. They are doing everything they can to destroy our credibility. Having said that though, a lot of people who have parked their vote with One Nation now have very legitimate concerns around energy, around immigration, around housing, around a rigged system – a rigged economic system – and we need to be responsive and respectful to those people. But let's not pretend that One Nation are out to form a coalition or work with us – they're not.

DAVID SPEERS: If it's a case by case question – preferences – Peter Costello famously took a tough stand and said, "not going to preference One Nation in my seat." Andrew Hastie, what about your seat? Would you preference One Nation?

ANDREW HASTIE: Again, I'm going to come back to seat by seat, case by case basis. The candidate who ran against me last year, a guy by the name of Fernando Bove – lovely family man, he became my friend, former DLP candidate – good guy. So, you know, case by case.

DAVID SPEERS: So what's the answer? Will you preference One Nation?

ANDREW HASTIE: It's complex, you see, because at the moment in South Australia, they've won a couple of seats in the lower house, but our vote on the centre-right was cannibalised. I'll cut to the chase – I want to build a very strong platform and vision for this country that people want to vote for –

DAVID SPEERS: But cut to the chase, would you preference One Nation?

ANDREW HASTIE: – Not chase votes to the right.

DAVID SPEERS: Does that mean not preferencing them?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, it's a case by case, seat by seat basis.

DAVID SPEERS: You're not sure?

ANDREW HASTIE: I just think you can't be hard and fast about these things.

DAVID SPEERS: Just finally, Andrew Hastie, you are this morning making a more forceful argument in pushing back against Donald Trump, a more open minded approach on tax reform, and on the preference deals you're open minded as well. You do seem to be speaking out more on some of these issues than some of your colleagues, and indeed, Angus Taylor. Who is really leading the Liberal Party thinking right now?

ANDREW HASTIE: Angus Taylor is leading the party, and I'm very glad to be in my current position of Shadow Minister for Industry and Sovereign Capability – it's a role I really enjoy. I care about this country. I want to build a stronger economy. I want to be more self-reliant. And yes, I'm more than happy to speak my mind, particularly on issues like the war in Iran. On one side, you've got Pauline Hanson boosting Donald Trump for the war in Iran. I've got a brother in the Navy – the question is, could I put my hand on heart as a parliamentarian and send him and his shipmates into the Strait of Hormuz? And I can't, because I know we don't have the capability to defend against Iranian drones and missiles. Now, the government should have remediated that – that's on the Albanese Government – but nor, like Pauline Hanson, should we be quick to commit Australians to a war that I think is going to be much more complex than otherwise suggested.

DAVID SPEERS: Andrew Hastie, thanks for joining us this morning.

ANDREW HASTIE: Thank you very much.

[ENDS]