THE HON ANDREW HASTIE MP
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE INDUSTRY
SHADOW MINISTER FOR DEFENCE PERSONNEL
FEDERAL MEMBER FOR CANNING

TRANSCRIPT
INTERVIEW WITH PATRICIA KARVELAS, ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING

WEDNESDAY 23 APRIL 2025

Topics: Coalition’s increase to defence spending, Ukraine, combat roles in the ADF.

E&OE

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Andrew Hastie, welcome to the program.

ANDREW HASTIE: Good to be with you, PK.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Your policy is to get to three per cent of GDP for Defence spending in a decade. That's exactly the figure nominated by the Trump Administration. Is it inspired by the request or demand from the Trump Administration for nations to get to that percentage?

ANDREW HASTIE: Not at all, Patricia. The world has changed over the last five years. We've seen the rise of authoritarian powers. We've seen a war in Ukraine. We have seen strategic disorder in the Middle East. And President Trump is re-posturing the United States with America First. So the world has changed, and Australia needs to be able to stand on its own two feet. We need to be strong, and we need to be secure, and so we're taking the hard decision to invest in the Australian Defence Force and revitalise our industrial base to get this country going again. It's really important that we're able to defend ourselves, and that means we need more money. That's why we're investing money into Defence.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How did you arrive at where we should land on? I mean, how do you make that assessment of what is a fair amount to be spending on Defence?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, it's a good question. I think the structural imposition on the Defence budget at the moment is AUKUS. Now, AUKUS is supported by both parties of government, and what Labor hasn't done is increase the Defence spend to account for AUKUS, which is why we're going to get 2.5 per cent in five years. Because without it, the rest of Defence – Army, Navy and Air Force – are going to be cannibalised by the spend on AUKUS. So we need to have a strong Army, Navy and Air Force. We need to fix the recruiting and retention crisis, and we need to be ready, and that means we've got to put more money into sustainment. We need more training hours for our pilots, for our sailors and our soldiers and under Labor, with their $80 billion worth of reprioritisations, delays and cuts, the Defence Force is actually growing weaker and going backwards.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: You said today that Australia can't take anything for granted after US President Donald Trump's return. That really struck me. What do you mean by that?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, we always have had a strong relationship with the United States. We're two of the world's oldest continuing democracies. But leadership matters, and President Trump is rebalancing the terms of trade and security with all of their partners, and so the message for us is we need to be able to be strong on our own two feet. Yes, we do have a deep relationship with the United States, but the lesson from Ukraine is often times you've got to demonstrate strength yourself if you want your friends to help you. And so that's why we need more capability. That's why we're reinstating the fourth squadron of F-35s, that's why we're going to invest in AUKUS and get it moving, get WA moving that Labor is delaying there. That's why as well, we're going to re industrialise our defence industrial base, because it's growing weaker under Labor as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So is it essentially you saying that under Donald Trump, the lesson has been that we can't rely on America as a sure thing?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, I think at the operational level, military to military, diplomat to diplomat, all the other touch points that we have the United States are very strong. But President Trump is someone who's hard to predict, and we need to be able to defend ourselves. We need to be able to be strong and we also want to uplift our collective security in the Indo Pacific, for our neighbours as well. We want to have a good relationship with Indonesia, with Malaysia, with Papua New Guinea, with the other Pacific islands, with Singapore. These are all important partnerships and by investing in our Defence Force as well, we help them with their security too.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I think the point you make that Donald Trump is hard to predict is very accurate so people would be happy to hear straight talking on that. Very hard to predict and erratic even. Given that, how sure are you that we don't need a plan B for AUKUS then? Will we get the subs? There are a lot of ifs, if there is an unpredictability.

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, one of the things that we have to do is demonstrate that we are sovereign ready by the end of the decade, and that means own, operate, regulate, maintain and dispose of a nuclear reactor. So we need to demonstrate to the United States before we receive our first Virginia-class, which means we've got to invest in WA. This is a multi-generational, nation building endeavour. We need to uplift our education standards, particularly in STEM, if we're going to raise the next generation of scientists to support AUKUS. We need more trades people. We need supply chain businesses that are being built. We need the infrastructure, the housing – all that needs to happen. And because Labor hasn't increased their Defence spend, a lot of that stuff is delayed and so there's risk in AUKUS. That's why a Peter Dutton led Coalition government is going to invest in WA to get AUKUS moving, and by doing so, we actually guarantee its success. But we can't afford to drag our feet anymore. And if we want President Trump or whoever follows him, to think: you know what, Australia is a strong partner, we've got to demonstrate that we're sovereign ready by 2030.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But things have changed under Trump, that's really the message here, isn't it?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, things certainly have changed. It's a very much an America First position. I'm a proud Australian –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – Yeah, because I'm a proud Australian too. What does it mean for us if they're America First? Well, we're not America, right?

ANDREW HASTIE: Sure. Well, I'm a proud Australian. I'm a patriot. I think the best way to protect the prosperity and the unique democratic institutions that we have in this country is to be strong, and that means having a strong Defence Force. So yes, there's AUKUS, of course. We need a strong Air Force. We need to be able to reach out and strike an adversary with guided weapons and missiles. But I think also there's a real opportunity for us to develop a world leading capability in drone and counter drone warfare. The untold story of Ukraine is the Australian businesses who are supporting our Ukrainian friends with lethal effects through drone and counter drone warfare. And if we choose to be world leaders in that technology, we can defend our vast geography. We've only got a population of 27 million people, but a massive country, and so we've got to find an asymmetric way of defending Australia. And I think the answer lies in our home grown, small and medium enterprises, and some of the technology we've seen emerge in Ukraine.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to go to some of the other issues and you mentioned the word actually, so it's perfect timing. Should Australia contribute troops to the 'Coalition of the Willing' peacekeeping mission in Ukraine?

ANDREW HASTIE: Peter Dutton has already ruled that out, and there's been no formal offer, as we understand it, there's been no strategy, and we're no closer to peace as it stands right now. Now, being an Australian who's been sent by former governments to serve overseas in a war zone, one thing I've learned is that I always want to know what our political leadership is trying to achieve. And so I think it's a very reasonable expectation that there is an offer number one, there is a clear strategy, and our Australian troops know what they're getting into. And right now, none of those three conditions have been met.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Peter Dutton said today that the Prime Minister is talking about sending hundreds or thousands of troops into Europe. When has that ever been suggested?

ANDREW HASTIE: Well, I think the Prime Minister didn't take counsel from the CDF, the Secretary, his National Security Committee of Cabinet, and he made a knee jerk comment into the public space. And I think he was trying to look tough. He pulled on the wrong rein at the time because he was over correcting from what happened with the Chinese flotilla that circumnavigated Australia. This always requires the most serious consideration from any government, and Peter Dutton this morning was right to say we shouldn't be sending Australians to a foreign country where we have Vladimir Putin on the other side of the border who has threatened to use tactical nuclear weapons. Warfare has also changed. We didn't have drone warfare in Afghanistan, but I can tell you, if we did, we'd have a lot more casualties than we ended up with. And so these are things that need to be worked through.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But all we've really done as a nation, is participated in that phone call, in the 'Coalition of the Willing' talks. New Zealand's done the same. Isn't that a reasonable thing to do? Wouldn't that be something you'd want Peter Dutton as prime minister to do?

ANDREW HASTIE: Of course. Of course, we will. We want to engage diplomatically with all our partners and beyond, because we need to be good neighbours, good world neighbours with everyone. But I think again –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – So Peter Dutton would join 'Coalition of the Willing' phone calls as well, which is what this is to you know, talk about what role everyone could play?

ANDREW HASTIE: I think Peter Dutton as prime minister is going to act in our national interest with strength and resolve, and if that includes sitting down with people like Keir Starmer and talking about these things, he will do that. But we've got to win the election first and foremost, and I think it's right for Peter Dutton and for the Coalition to push back against premature commitments to sending Australian soldiers to dangerous war zones without a clear strategy or plan. Moreover –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – Sure. But he hasn't done that yet, to be fair. There hasn't been a commitment of anything. There's been a participation in the 'Coalition of the Willing' in discussions. But you would like your side of politics to do the same, wouldn't you, at least be part of these conversations?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, like I said, Peter Dutton as prime minister and me as defence minister, we'll have discussions on a range of issues. It's hypothetical at the moment, but I think the lesson of the last few weeks, last few months - we've had a Chinese flotilla circumnavigate our continent in a display of gunboat diplomacy. We've had reports of Russia seeking an airhead in Indonesia, and the government has not adequately briefed us on that. So we have immediate responsibilities in our region that we must take seriously, and we've got to secure ourselves first before we can project power, or military power, or support to our friends beyond our shores.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just to be clear, you wouldn't pull out of the 'Coalition of the Willing' discussions that we've been part of?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, Peter has made very clear, we're not going to be sending Australian soldiers to dangerous war zones where people have threatened the use of tactical nuclear weapons. As for –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – But it's not sending them to war zones, if it's using our trainees, for instance, in some other manifestation.

ANDREW HASTIE: We want to continue training Ukrainian troops, as we've done in the UK. We want to keep sending leading technology to give the Ukrainians the edge in battle, and we'll continue to discuss this issue with world leaders, or at least Peter Dutton as prime minister will. So I don't think there's any inconsistency there, but what he said is, we're not going to send young Australians and put them at risk without a clear plan or strategy.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just on another issue, and I know you dealt with this at the press conference, I watched the whole thing on women in combat roles. But there is a question I still have. The Australian Defence Force I understand, utilises two primary tests for both men and women, the pre-entry fitness assessment and a psychological aptitude test. Do you propose we move to one test as you mentioned today?

ANDREW HASTIE: I mentioned combat roles today, specifically, service in Special Forces, service aboard submarines, service in fighter jets, to name just a few. And the reason I mention those particularly is because they require a special set of skills and attributes. Just to give you a sense, selection for service with the Special Air Service Regiment or the 2nd Commando Regiment, everyone has to do the three weeks. Everyone has to carry a 30-kilo load over 20-kilometres in less than three hours and 15 minutes, for example, with full pack, webbing, rifle and the lot of it. I lost 12 kilos in three weeks. That's what I'm talking about when there's one standard. So as for the things that you've listed, I'm sure that's something that I'll get briefed on if I become minister for defence. But my point this morning was, in war, you either win or you lose, and we want to be winning any future war that we're engaging. I hope, that we never have to fight again –

PATRICIA KARVELAS: – For sure.

ANDREW HASTIE: – But the RSL motto is "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance" and we've got to be vigilant about these things.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But in terms of the SAS, is there one test or two tests based on being a woman?

ANDREW HASTIE: There's one test.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: One test?

ANDREW HASTIE: There's one test.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But for entry into the ADF, there's two tests. Do you want to make that one, or do you want to keep that as it is?

ANDREW HASTIE: Look, my point today and my point in the past was that where we have very dangerous combat roles, we've got to insist on a single standard. We recruit from a very wide base of people. In fact, we're falling well behind our recruiting targets. And for example, if we want an expert at cyber warfare, well we don't need them to be as fit and as capable as someone who wants to be a fighter pilot. So too, with someone who wants to serve in Special Forces. The point is, where we have those generally elite capabilities, we've got to insist on a single standard and that was the point I made today.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, so would that involve, as you understand it, change, or you'd have to get briefed on it?

ANDREW HASTIE: No. I was an instructor on the first integrated SAS selection course, I think it was back in 2015, where we had males and females, and it was absolutely one standard. One standard for all. These are the tests. Meet them or you go home.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, and you stood by the comments you made years ago. Why did you make that decision? Because you could have said, I got it wrong. Why did you decide to stand by them?

ANDREW HASTIE: Because people want honest answers and a bit of integrity, and I don't live for the applause of my enemies. People will want to twist these words and suggest that somehow I'm not for equality. I am for equality, and I do value the women who serve in our uniform, and I believe in equal opportunity. I've got two little girls myself, Patricia, and I want them to be able to serve in the ADF if they so choose. And so I stood by my comments, because they were honest at the time, and they were based on my experience. There is a bond that you have with some people in the ADF and in service that is kind of hard to explain. That doesn't mean the Coalition has a policy to roll back any of the changes made to personnel policy in the last 15 years - there isn't.  I've been in this job now for almost five years, as I said – 18 months as the Assistant Minister, three years as Shadow Minister for Defence – and combat roles will remain open to all Australians.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Many thanks for joining us. I know it was a long interview, but I think sometimes these issues should be ventilated at length. So I appreciate your time. I am a time thief. Thank you very much.

ANDREW HASTIE: My pleasure, PK. Thank you.

[ENDS]